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Sticky:[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1895	Posted - 2015.06.15 15:22:48 - [1] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Zappity wrote: No. We have 60 pages of people explaining why this change negatively affects their game when their game is not the intended target. We also have 60 pages of you (and pretty much you alone) telling them to htfu. Should they also remove warp to zero? After all, you only need a scout to go ahead and burn to the gate first. This is a similar argument - it would increase "player involvement" in fleets and be a complete pita for everyone else. And here you go off the deep end again with your doom mongering. Scouts being needed for fleets is not the end of the world, if you don't have the numbers then go hire some newbees from a starter system. But then people can't keep their 20 mill SP requirement...
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1898	Posted - 2015.06.16 12:23:24 - [2] - Quote afkalt wrote: Ben Ishikela wrote: Providing warpins is a very fun activity. Its get the heart pumping. Everyone is relying on you. Here you can show off your skills and make the warpin even closer and better (ofc at more risk). But it is overshadowed by current fleetwarps in combination with probing. Its hardly needed currently. Go move a mixed fleet through thera, repeatedly. Let me know how "fun" it is. I'll agree, it IS very much good in combat, but day to day movement? It's absolutely NO FUN being a mobile bookmark, or waiting on said bookmark landing with your junk hanging out. You could always warp to your "BM" while he is still mid warp so you don't have to keep your junk hangning out. Pretty sure he count as a valid target as long as he is at least 150KM away. Is using 2 warp instead of just one hard?
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1902	Posted - 2015.06.16 14:36:13 - [3] - Quote Shadowforge Dawkins wrote: Ben Ishikela wrote: I cannot believe that the rather intelligent playerbase of EvE is so blind. Did all the F1-monkeyery make you stupid all of a sudden? You, as many others, seem to miss the point. Providing warpins is a very fun activity. Its get the heart pumping. Everyone is relying on you. Here you can show off your skills and make the warpin even closer and better (ofc at more risk). But it is overshadowed by current fleetwarps in combination with probing. Its hardly needed currently. With the changes, an interceptor or cloaky frigate will be a very valuable asset. For a Pilot to help his fleet, he does not need to be able to sit in a MNI or Ishtar with perfect rekking-skills. Then he'll need low training time required, only 30mil for a a fitted fast ship and a little experience of manual piloting. I dont say its easy, there is communication and other skills required. But Eve is hard. If its getting harder, well.... even better. I am predicting, that Corporations are going to need more pilots and not only SP-heavy scanning alts.... And that, i believe, is a good thing for the health of a game. Tactik for cloaky warpin: let the covops (fitted hyperspacial etc) warp to 10 of his target. as soon as he lands he calls that out and the fleet warps to 0km onto him. at that time, the enemy might be farther away, so bonus if they have speed. but then again, a wise interceptor pilot could help to predict that movement. Well, maybe even assault frigates will be useful again! Let the paying noobs have a shiny day in a fleet too!!! (... and if he f*s up, its just a little frigate wreck more. not the end of the day.) Except only being useful for being a scout gets old. we all came to this game to fight. Not sit and watch everything or hear about it on comms sitting on the far side of a wormhole. being the scout when the fight turns into a 45 minute brawl on a wormhole needs more dps/logi not more scouts. Everybody want to be in the spotlight and would rather act as a herd of cows to be partially in it than do different roles where they might not show up on KM but still have a bigger impact on a fight. The issue wiith "I want to be in the action" is that a metric ass ton of people can't understand how those tactical roles have much more impact than a grunt following order like a robot in the ball of DPS ever will. People don't want to do the "thankless" jobs because there are too many retards who won't thank them for doing what is essential. They all take it for granted and think of themself highly because they got their name on 42 KM that night while the dude who delivered those KM on a silver platter to them by providing them a perfect warp in gets nothing. It's the same reason sooooooooo many people won't fly logi for example. People don't understand that the end result, a KM, is the result of a much longer process than ctrl+click F1. As long as the mentality stays as it is now, support roles will never be "rewarding" to do even if it brings better overall gameplay to the game. Remember when people bitched because drone assist was getting limited? This si the same thing. CCP is asking you do do stuff while you are in fleet and not just a whole 3 command total. Currently, it's whatever you want to use for anchoring (keep at range, approach or orbit), ctrl+click on called target and F1 on primary. At most, you might get a "prop mod on" because you MWD can't be kept on forever. Having to do your warp yourself is not entertaining? How "fun" is a message in the middle of the screen telling you "Oh btw, X decided you would warp now".
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1902	Posted - 2015.06.16 15:10:50 - [4] - Quote Shadowforge Dawkins wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: How "fun" is a message in the middle of the screen telling you "Oh btw, X decided you would warp now". How fun is it to spend 15 minutes calculating your cruisers, logi, and battlecruisers so you know who needs to warp first, second, last so that the enemy does not alpha your smaller ships or logi before the whole fleet arrives? How fun is it to have to wait for bookmarks to propagate when your target could leave at any moment? How fun is it to have to trade bookmarks constantly in order to get things done 'efficiently'? You could always ask your FC to fleetwarp you to the scout and not ahve to deal with calculating warp speed, waitign for BM or trading BM...
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1905	Posted - 2015.06.16 16:41:00 - [5] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Shadowforge Dawkins wrote: You could always ask your FC to fleetwarp you to the scout and not ahve to deal with calculating warp speed, waitign for BM or trading BM... And there is the problem that I have noted that you are ignoring, and that is that in many situations the scout cannot be on top of the target without being de-cloaked. Even with very fast scouts, you still have to keep in mind that de-cloaking with most likely end the element of surprise and possibly allow them to escape entirely. as I said earlier, bookmark their MTU or the can they are hacking or the cloud they are sitting in or the asteroid they are next to allows us to drop on top of them before they finish their site. or in the case of MTU's, drop on them when they have finished killing rats and before they can warp off. If only there was a cloaky ship with bonused longpoints....[/quote] There ar a zulution for every problems it seems...
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1905	Posted - 2015.06.16 17:45:24 - [6] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Awkward Pi Duolus wrote: Shadowforge Dawkins wrote: Except only being useful for being a scout gets old. we all came to this game to fight. Not sit and watch everything or hear about it on comms sitting on the far side of a wormhole. being the scout when the fight turns into a 45 minute brawl on a wormhole needs more dps/logi not more scouts. A great point. At best, it will be the extra alt the FC has been forced to make, unless s/he uses such an alt already. At worst, it will be an otherwise active pilot being hamstrung into becoming a mobile bookmark instead of actually enjoying the game the way s/he wanted to. What is more enjoyable with anchoring on the FC, targeting what he calls and pressing f1? But DUUUUUDE!!!!!! I get to be on the killmail while the scout might not. People don't want to be "just a scout" for the exact same damn reason the SRP manager somehow had to include a damn rule about no guns on logi. Muuuuuuuh killboard!!!!!!
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1905	Posted - 2015.06.16 18:12:30 - [7] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: But DUUUUUDE!!!!!! I get to be on the killmail while the scout might not. People don't want to be "just a scout" for the exact same damn reason the SRP manager somehow had to include a damn rule about no guns on logi. Muuuuuuuh killboard!!!!!! The need for green is real. The whole "problem" is an attitude one. If you think you don't contribute as a scout, you are not doing it wrong but thinking wrong.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1905	Posted - 2015.06.16 18:40:24 - [8] - Quote Awkward Pi Duolus wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: The whole "problem" is an attitude one. If you think you don't contribute as a scout, you are not doing it wrong but thinking wrong. Eh, people's expectation from this game and the amount of effort they want to put into it differ. Scouting is like being a logi or a fleet booster - you don't do it for the killmails, but because you get the satisfaction from knowing that you made a disproportionately positive contribution to the fleet. Unfortunately, nothing in this change will cause people who otherwise wouldn't have become scouts, now become scouts. It will, however, increase the burden on FCs to have a backup prober alt ready, if they don't already, when no one steps up. The FC could always do what they do when no-one steps up to logi...
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1906	Posted - 2015.06.16 18:58:01 - [9] - Quote Awkward Pi Duolus wrote: baltec1 wrote: What is more enjoyable with anchoring on the FC, targeting what he calls and pressing f1? The euphoria from seeing your enemies annihilated one by one in a brilliant flash as the collective alpha of a fleet chews through them is quite something, actually. Sure, doing small gang stuff is a different kind of heart pumping fun, but that's for my late night T3D/dessie jaunts. Sometimes though, say on weekends with friends, I just like to sit back and see things burn without having to break too much of a sweat. It's ok, you will still be euphoric when the FC fleet warp you to his scout, alt or player, before resuming with the CTRL-CLICK F1 fun gameplay.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1906	Posted - 2015.06.16 19:14:53 - [10] - Quote Awkward Pi Duolus wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: The FC could always do what they do when no-one steps up to logi... Absolutely. After all, a fleet only ever needs one logi, which could easily be alt-tabbed. It's easyer to fill 1 scount than 8 logi no? Well not with whoring drones or guns in high I guess... Awkward Pi Duolus wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: It's ok, you will still be euphoric when the FC fleet warp you to his scout, alt or player, before resuming with the CTRL-CLICK F1 fun gameplay. Then what's the point of making the game any more tedious for the FC and less fun for the poor scout who's now relegated to being a mobile bookmark? How about you think of your FC and realize he probably does not find it fun to scan everything by himself, provide the warp ins by himself and then direct the fleet all by himself? Is your lazy attitude of not being willing to work for the fleet to work supposed to be a god given right that nobody will ever remove from you? The reason FC might overload from a change like this is because there are too many lazy people in fleet would would be happy if they could farm KM while afk. When FC start quitting because nobody steps up to support them and just step down themselves and decide to just be F1 grunt, then maybe people will realise they should of stepped up just a little bit once in a while to do the "hard and boring" job of enabling all your friends to have a fight. The "enablers" in this game do all the work and as soon as some MIGHT get offloaded to the rest of the fleet, it's all tears and rage because the god given right of the lazy leeches might be somewhat reduced... Shakespeare could not write a bigger tragedy...

Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1908	Posted - 2015.06.16 19:41:16 - [11] - Quote Awkward Pi Duolus wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: How about you think of your FC and realize he probably does not find it fun to scan everything by himself, provide the warp ins by himself and then direct the fleet all by himself? Is your lazy attitude of not being willing to work for the fleet to work supposed to be a god given right that nobody will ever remove from you? The reason FC might overload from a change like this is because there are too many lazy people in fleet would would be happy if they could farm KM while afk. When FC start quitting because nobody steps up to support them and just step down themselves and decide to just be F1 grunt, then maybe people will realise they should of stepped up just a little bit once in a while to do the "hard and boring" job of enabling all your friends to have a fight. The "enablers" in this game do all the work and as soon as some MIGHT get offloaded to the rest of the fleet, it's all tears and rage because the god given right of the lazy leeches might be somewhat reduced... Shakespeare could not write a bigger tragedy... I share your indignation, my friend. If my arguments make me seem like a F1-monkey, then lemme correct that saying I fly inties, sabres, SBs and logi - those with specific roles. I couldn't care less about KMs at this point. BUT! Fleet is full of people trying to get whom into specialized roles is like pulling teeth. A game mechanic change will not entice them to do anything. It will simply mean more work for those that care. I wouldn't call it a tragedy though, and much less a Shakespearean one at that - people are entitled to their gameplay styles, and I wouldn't presume to dictate their choices. I certainly wouldn't want to make it any more tedious than it already is. So you are some kind of "defender of the dead weight"?
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1908	Posted - 2015.06.16 20:45:00 - [12] - Quote Rowells wrote: Awkward Pi Duolus wrote: Forum warriors with 0 kills are dead weight. Says the NPC forum alt. THough it was targetted at me then I remembered I participated on 2 kills last week. OP success
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1911	Posted - 2015.06.16 20:58:38 - [13] - Quote Awkward Pi Duolus wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: So you are some kind of "defender of the dead weight"? More like, defender of folks who don't want to play this game like it's their second job. I would not call them dead weight at all. Inactive characters are dead weight. People who PvE all day in null are dead weight. People who wh*re with a logi gun instead of repping are dead weight. Forum warriors with 0 kills are dead weight. Casual players who just wanna have some fun and make up many, if not most, of the gamers in Eve - not dead weight. Tying it to the proposed changes, there is nothing there that would force these folks to be the "I was there" guy. There is also nothing in game now that prevents those who wanna be the "I was there" guy, be that guy. That is what makes this such a vacuous game mechanic change. Your "not dead weight" crowd will still get their fleet warp at the end of the day so their gameplay is not affected. The FC will be able to deal with it as long as his group is willing to train people into the required roles. If they are not willing, I guess they will get defeated by the side who does...
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1917	Posted - 2015.06.17 13:40:23 - [14] - Quote Arrendis wrote: 1nverted wrote: 1. Make non slippery pete snipper doctrines viable again as it will take longer for tackle to land on them. In this added time, the sniper fleet can fully align. and simultaneously make people wonder why they're flying a sniper doctrine that isn't bubble-immune, more maneuverable than battleships and sniper ABCs, and even harder to probe down! Yeah. Really gonna bring back the non-Pete snipers. If anything, Petes will be the order of the day everywhere. That's because Petes are ***** ******. Whoever though it was a great idea to design a ship would would be both combat capable and able to dodge interdiction system is the guy to blame. He isn't necessarily an idiot but he did lack forethought in the same way supercap/titan design was lacking...
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1917	Posted - 2015.06.17 13:41:46 - [15] - Quote TinkerHell wrote: BadAssMcKill wrote: Have you considered making the game more fun for a change This quote that was all that was needed in response to this idea. This and the last few changes lead to: - Fleet warp is now becoming a hassle and will take longer.. - My warping is slower (i hate frigate pvp) - I now have fatigue timers Three changes that are making travelling take longer, and limiting my actual pvp time. I play EVE because i want to PVP not travel. Live closer to target and you won't have to travel that damn long.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1920	Posted - 2015.06.17 20:14:53 - [16] - Quote Arrendis wrote: stoicfaux wrote: Don't forget the stacking penalized logistics component: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3a5kn0/csm10_massacring_sacred_cows_reforming_logistics/ I have to admit, as a dedicated logi pilot, the power of logistics in the current combat model is just beyond broken, and desperately needs fixing. That said, the problem with any single set 'solution' is the same one that's kept jump fatigue, sov changes, and pretty much every other 'solution' from really having any effect on the big orgs: There is no problem in the history of mankind for which a solution has been found where that solution was not found quicker, or a better solution found, by the group that could devote more brainpower to the search. There has never been a solution in the history of mankind which cannot be better implemented by the group with more manpower to devote to the task. Ever. Strength in numbers isn't always about finding 5 other guys and beating some lone troublemaker to death with aluminum bats in the empty Blockbuster parking lot behind Burger King on Rte 111 at 4:30 in the morning in the dead of winter in 1983 because he owes you te-... er..... I may have said too much. The game is built around the fact you can always throw more ressources "ISk, ships, bigger/better ships, pilots,..." at a problem and you still have people not understanding every single nerf will be overpowered through with more number untill it become absolutely impossible even for the biggest organisation. The very premise of the game is what is creating those situations. A game where you can stack the odds to the very limit to your advantage ended up with fights with odds so stacked people refused to undock. Go figure...
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1924	Posted - 2015.06.17 21:09:41 - [17] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Arrendis wrote: Rowells wrote: Arrendis wrote: stoicfaux wrote: How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/ Well, it does mean that if you can build something that moves fast enough and targets far enough, they're gonna have a ***** of a time warping their tacklers onto you... Fortunately, anything filling that description has other viable counters. I had a talos orbiting 200-250 at 6km/s and a barghest almost ended that escapade. Yeah... I've been playing w/the idea of a high-speed ECM ship... someone locks you to stop your entosising, jam 'em. Interceptor armed with sensor damp does the job easily enough. You can get around most of those defense with number, You can only fit so many damps on an inty or ECM mods on an ECM ship after all. Oh look, the solution is again the same as to many problems...
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1924	Posted - 2015.06.17 21:23:05 - [18] - Quote Awkward Pi Duolus wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: You can get around most of those defense with number, You can only fit so many damps on an inty or ECM mods on an ECM ship after all. Oh look, the solution is again the same as to many problems... Not to mention, you actually have to land anywhere near the inty's lock range. Good luck with that when the task involved is first a scan, and then a warp by the prober, and then a warp by you to the prober :) Or you can use the most "OP" thing in this game and clutter the grid around his target with friendly ship. One of them will catch or kill or push it away. A loose ball of caracals with rapid light will force an inty off the field. Entosis inty will still be stupid but at least you can shove him off the field. Letting ships as manoeuvrable and fast as inties being able to run entosis link is where the mistakes was made imo.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1924	Posted - 2015.06.17 21:36:09 - [19] - Quote Awkward Pi Duolus wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Or you can use the most "OP" thing in this game and clutter the grid around his target with friendly ship. One of them will catch or kill or push it away. A loose ball of caracals with rapid light will force an inty off the field. Entosis inty will still be stupid but at least you can shove him off the field. Letting ships as manoeuvrable and fast as inties being able to run entosis link is where the mistakes was made imo. Yeah.. And then imagine if a group decides to escalate with a bunch of orthruses, which are zipping out at 200km, using T2 links. Any inty or cruiser hull that gets anywhere near it will get evaporated. At least with 10 inties, you could hope that a few of them land scrams and webs. With these changes, they will always land 50-100km behind those guys. If entosis troll wasn't a thing before, now it will be. Fast maneuvrable boat with long range are kinda stupid. News at 11.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1925	Posted - 2015.06.17 21:48:58 - [20] - Quote Dermeisen wrote: baltec1 wrote: stoicfaux wrote: How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/ It doesnt. Cant warp around the grid and entosis at the same time. I believe that's correct at the level of game mechanics however I anticipate warping to the command/control points that spawn in the system during the new process will involve much probing, engagement and new tactics .... The guy running the link will still be unable to warp as it would break his lock. For the others, it will depend how the nodes are built. It will either permit free warp to it's grid or force a warp-in point. It might be deadspace for example and not permit warp inside of this grid.

Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1925	Posted - 2015.06.17 22:31:41 - [21] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: You can get around most of those defense with number, You can only fit so many damps on an inty or ECM mods on an ECM ship after all. Oh look, the solution is again the same as to many problems... If they bring numbers the FYF will take over. And again, you used to eternal solution to most of EVE's problems. It create another but hey, we all wanted to not have limits right? Off topic, what would happen if 2 FYF faced off? Fastest locker win?
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1925	Posted - 2015.06.17 22:52:59 - [22] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Off topic, what would happen if 2 FYF faced off? Fastest locker win? It would be a battle between two rocks to see which one the wind erodes away first. Reductio ad Celestisums. I don't even know what to think of this now...
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1927	Posted - 2015.06.18 12:58:28 - [23] - Quote Arrendis wrote: joecuster wrote: lolwut Yup, it's at 23:30 on the soundcloud. He'd love to remove Approach, Keep at Range, and Orbit. Because in any kind of fight of significant size, the logistics clearly don't have enough to do, trying to catch broadcasts that can be coming in at a rate of dozens in a second while still keeping themselves from drifting off away from the fleet or into enemy gun range. Tell you what, Larrikin: forget the nav interface - give me a crew, so I can have the 10-50 people able to focus on different tasks that my cruiser's already supposed to have at minimum. Cuz I'm good, but I can't actually do the work of 10 brains at once, let alone 50. Honestly, when was the last time these guys did anything in subcaps larger than a dozen people in their fleet? The new guy trying to learn this job will have an even harder time than a vet like you who already can handle part of it. Can't wait for logi frigs to constantly get slingshotted by their own fleet because they dared take their eyes off their overview to have their range tot he main fleet so they could check the broadcast window and their target to apply reps.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1927	Posted - 2015.06.18 13:00:01 - [24] - Quote Barrogh Habalu wrote: afkalt wrote: Except we don't have access to a TTL (time to land) formula, so this isn't possible to work out with any degree of accuracy. Well, I'm pretty sure it's not impossible to roughly approximate it by gathering experimental data from people in your corp/alliance. Pretty sure that's what some entities were doing since forever when faced with tasks like this one. It helps that doctrines don't have huge variance of warp speeds, so you can leave out bothering with trying to stuff warp speed variable as opposed to counting what you need on class-by-class basis. Not that I'm trying to support the change, but it's a way to go around in case these changes drop. It's not like logistics have a 50% advantage in warp speed over battleship right... It looks small because it's only like 1 AU/s but thats still happen to be 50% of 2AU/s...